Oil pump/loss of prime: copy of my post to airlist
Hi all, I'm new here.
I have an '84 R100T that I bought new off the showroom floor in Michigan Center, MI when I was 24. Vin#: WB1 043501E6176944. The engine (58,000 mi) resides in a 1976 frame (48,000 mi). I'm in the process of righting the wrongs of my youth. Oil & filter changed religiously @ 3,000 mi and normal tune-up intervals have been followed over the years. I can follow with more info if needed but my question now; is it possible to lose prime at the oil pump? I pulled the clutch carrier (heading all warnings) and replaced the main seal, cap o-ring and oil pump cover o-ring. After mounting the carrier and tourqe the bolts I notice there is no oil pumping into valve area as the crank is rotated. (My next project is valve seat/head work). I confess the o-ring was not on hand when I removed the pump cover for feeler gauge inspection so the cover went back on w/ bolts finger tight for a couple days and there was some leakage. I have done a search in many different ways and have not found much for answers. Thanks for any help/ advise you may have. I'm older now and didn't appreciate this machine near enough younger. The more I learn the more question I'm going to have for all of you. Thank you again.
Rodney.
... but my question now; is it possible to lose prime at the oil pump?
Rodney -
Certainly no expert on the subject, but I suspect there is nothing for you to be concerned about. When the oil pump cover was taken off, did the oil back-flow to the sump ? Most certainly 'Yes'. Will the rotation of the pump "pick up" oil in the sump and begin to circulate it once again through the engine ? Again, most certainly 'Yes'.
You seem to be using the oil to the heads to gauge the presence of oil circulation, and that may be where you are falling down. Probably 98% of the oil goes to the crankshaft, the rocker arms only take a minuscule ~2%. There is very LOW oil flow at cranking speeds, and 2% of "very LOW" is almost nothing. And that's what you're seeing.
For a proper test what I suggest you do is unscrew the oil pressure sender, and then turn the engine over without spark plugs. A correctly operating pump should dribble only about 3 tablespoons per min oil down the side of the engine block at cranking speeds.
Hope this helps.
Owning an old Airhead is easy.
Keeping an old Airhead running great is the true test.
Thanks, I appreciate the response and reasoning. My question is based on seeing oil flow from the cylinder studs when performing valve adjustments, when finding tdc. From my reading of replacing a cam shaft, I've never seen a refrence to "priming" the pump but thought it worth while to ask... as Snobum always encourages us to do. Thank you again.
Oil in the galleries going to the valve gear probably did back-flow to the sump during the storage and work periods. All liquids seek their own level. The only way to be 100% sure about your oil pressure is to take out the plugs, plug them up to the plug wires, and lay the plugs on the cyl heads. Then use the electric starter to make the oil pressure lamp go out before starting the engine. With one valve cover off, you should see oil at the valves and rockers very soon after cranking.
People generally get overly concerned about lubrication to the valve gear. Some of the vintage bikes I work on have no oil lines to the rocker arms. The owner's manual simply says to get the oil can out once a week and take care of it. Others, like the famous Norton Manx racing engines, have their rocker arms and valve gear out in the open for all to see with no visible means of lubrication.
Owning an old Airhead is easy.
Keeping an old Airhead running great is the true test.
Very cool pic's. Thanks.
rodneyd1, you probably have your engine running by now, but in case you don't, here is what I did to prime my R90/6 before the first start (after a complete teardown). With the oil pressure switch removed, I poked the end of this pump-type oil can into the hole where the switch had been, and pumped in some 20W50 till I felt resistance. Then I replaced the pressure switch.
I also placed the bike on its kickstand to lean it to the left, and used the same oil can to partially fill the oil filter cavity on the RH side of the bike. Then I installed the filter cover.
Before I had fuel in the system, I wanted to see if the engine would prime. I didn't bother to pull spark plugs and ground them to the jugs, or to kill the ignition system. I just turned the key and hit the switch. I think it turned about seven times and shut off the oil pressure light. I let it sit for a moment, and tried it again. The light went off almost immediately, so I figured the oil system was primed. Later, at first startup, the engine fired right away and the oil light was off. I went for the first ride, to seat the rings. All has been good since then.
Note: I bought a new oil can for this purpose, and still flushed it with solvent to make sure it was clean. Then I blew it out with compressed air before filling it with fresh oil.
Thanks fxray,
I'm onto the electrical (starter, alt., etc.) but will keep your suggestions in mind when I put it back together.
Thanks again for taking the time.
Back in the day, when I was building engines in the dealerships, we used to pack the oil pump with petroleum jelly. Primed every time.
Mark
I'm onto the electrical (starter, alt., etc.) ....
Take the time to disassemble the starter motor and re-pack the bearings and bendix with modern synthetic grease. I have a friend who swears the only reason that OEM starters go bad is that the grease oxidizes, thus making it hard for the starter to operate. According to him (and he's a long-time Airhead mechanic), starter motors done this way spin easier and faster. Makes complete sense to me, and I've followed his advice with no apparent down-side.
Owning an old Airhead is easy.
Keeping an old Airhead running great is the true test.
Yeah, for thirty bucks I replaced the bendix (bearing WAS dry and dragging) with a new one and another couple dollars replaced the bushings at each end. The brushes, armature and comutator are all in great shape. Not bad for a 34 year old machine at 58000 mi.
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